Leo says 38 – RTX DLSS HARDWARE UNBOXED, 16 inch Macbook Pro, USB 3.2/4 nonsense and MORE!

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Leo is back this week and he talks about the Nvidia DLSS drama that continues to trouble the company. Hardware Unboxed have created some great videos on one of the key features for the new RTX cards – how bad is it really? He also talks about the unreleased MacBook Pro 16 inch, Intel 9th Gen CPU, Apple Radeon Pro Vega/ Navi and the mess of standards that is USB in 2019.

See some of the DLSS Hardware unboxed videos here:

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00:10 Introduction
00:18 Nvidia RTX and GTX – hows its all shaping up?
02:41 Nvidia DLSS getting a pasting from online media including Hardware Unboxed
05:23 Intel 9th Gen CPUs for notebooks due in Q2
08:11 Apple will produce a 16-inch MacBook Pro
09:30 Apple slipped out Radeon Pro Vega without an announcement – Navi Next?
10:20 Gigabyte’s Xeon W3175X motherboard has been named as C621 Aorus Extreme
11:11 MWC was all about 5G and folding phones
14:09 USB 3.2 is coming soon with 5Gbps, 10Gbps and 20Gbps versions.
17:16 USB4 specs announced in a few months time with a 40Gbps connection. USB4 incorporates Thunderbolt 3

Leo’s Notes for EP 38

Nvidia has launched GTX 1660 Ti, a non-Ray Tracing part that bats at a similar level as GTX 1070. We understand they will launch GTX 1660 and 1650 in March. This is an interesting move as everything Nvidia said about Ray Tracing and RTX counts against GTX 1660 Ti, however the performance, price and low power draw beat AMD Polaris and make GTX 1660 Ti a winner.

Nvidia DLSS has received a pasting, not least from Hardware Unboxed both in terms of the permitted combinations of GPU and resolution, and also in terms of the way it works. In essence DLSS only works when RTX is enabled and it regains the performance you lose by blurring the image. 4K with DLSS has similar performance levels to rendering at 1800p.

Intel 9th Gen CPUs for notebooks due in Q2
Core i9-9980HK 8 cores/16 threads, Turbo to around 4.8GHz
Core i7-9850H 8 cores/8 threads, Turbo to 4.6GHz
Core i5-9400H 4 cores/8 threads, Turbo to 4.3GHz
Very likely these will be 45W parts so the base clocks will be low.

And in other rumours, Apple will produce a 16-inch MacBook Pro
If the screen is edge-to-edge it is possible the chassis will have the same footprint as the current 15-inch model but you would have thought the priority was to add some bulk to the chassis to help cooling.
Radeon Pro Vega graphics will surely be superseded by Navi.

Gigabyte’s Xeon W3175X motherboard has been named as C621 Aorus Extreme

MWC was all about 5G and folding phones
We saw Royole FlexPai at CES 2019
Huawei Mate X looks superb but crazy expensive at US$2300
Samsung Galaxy Fold closes up like a paperback book and is priced at US$2000

USB 3.2 is coming soon with 5Gbps, 10Gbps and 20Gbps versions.
5Gbps is a rebadging of USB 3.0 or USB 3.1 Gen 1 and 10Gbps is a rebadged USB 3.1 Gen 2.
20Gbps is a shotgunned connection that will be named USB 3.2 2×2.
How any of us will know which device will run at what speed is a complete mystery.
We expect to see the first USB 3.2 logos on AMD X570 motherboards at Computex (along with PCI Express 4)

The specification for USB4 will be announced in a few months time with a 40Gbps connection. USB4 incorporates Thunderbolt 3. Intel’s Press Release “this …enables other chip makers to build Thunderbolt compatible silicon, royalty-free”

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see Sonic the heart of your system I'm near water for kick guru this is leo says number 38 my roundup of the news and stuff that has caught my attention nvidia always a good place to start they launched gtx 1660 TI a non rate racing part hence its GTX not r-tx Dominic's review makes it crystal clear what's going on a good piece of hardware apparently they'll also be a regular 1616 non TI oh maybe a 1650 sometime in March a rumours on that seem absolutely solid although I personally had no official informational as I said it seems clear that Nvidia launched GTX 60 and 60 TI purely to beat AMD Polaris rx 590 and they've done a really good job of that it wins in terms of performance price and power draw they've priced it frankly I think a tad high but they priced it just low enough and it makes rx 590 look like a poor purchase so in that sense they've done an absolutely fine job it is only slightly cheaper than our TX 2060 so to my mind the common sense approaches to by RT X 2060 because the the saving is minimal it's like $50 or maybe even 30 pounds and considering that RT X is supposed to come good in time and assuming you keep your graphics card for a few years people to buy mid-range graphics cards do not generally update them all the time so if you're buying a graphics card now and you want to spend about 300 on it RTX to my mind is the better move than this gtx 1660 TI but the funny thing about this is that everything that Jenson Wang said at the launch of RT X about ray tracing and RT X on well it goes by the wayside this graphics card doesn't have it and that puts in video in a slightly curious position there saying look here's this perfectly competent refinement of the previous technology and look it doesn't have ray tracing and yet it's really good it just winds across the board and it makes you wonder what would happen if they brought out the GTX would it be eighteen eighty TI pasa of God knows and you can extrapolate those numbers nonetheless the non ray tracing version of RT X 20 80 were they to bring that out and cut the price down sensibly then that could be really compelling which I'm quite sure is the reason why they're not gonna bring it out because if they did well that's it will have that rather than Pascal thank you very much so a curious curious thing the marketing message previously ray tracing on r-tx on you must have this thing and now we have this other thing that proves the precise opposite and yet those two marketing messages never touch they pass in the night meanwhile in video messaging further DL SS when I did video at CES are saying we'd misunderstood what the LSS was all about and how it's meant to a render at a lower resolution and then output at a higher resolution such that you get decent performance and DL SS we've had how many three four driver updates without testing laptops with our TX mobile graphics has been a real pain in the neck we first had the windows update that enabled DirectX R then we had to came with DirectX R and then we had a series of driver updates and I think we've had four driver updates in recent times between fish and DL SS is now a thing we've had Port Royal from ul as a benchmark and then a battlefield 5 obviously now allows you to play around with the setting and people are not happy they just are not Hardware unboxed in particular seems to have absolutely really gone to town on this justifiably so they have demonstrated that 4k performance of DL SS has similar performance levels so if you render at 1800 P the trouble is the image quality is not great now NVIDIA has acknowledged this in fairness to them and they said this would be a learning experience I mean it is after all deep learning so therefore literally a learning experience as things stand right now what they're offering ad LSS is not compelling it just isn't the way you get back performance is you blur stuff and make it imprecise well Mars will play low resolution I've done with it it's also aggravating that the permutations you can have of resolution and whether DL SS is enabled or not there are technical reasons for the way in video has done what it has done but it looks frustrating you say well I'd like to have it at this resolution please and those image caught in this like no you basically you'd take what the great machine in the sky lets you have all you turn it off it's one or the other not satisfactory hopefully it's going to get better because otherwise it means the whole r-tx thing is just a busted flush but these are very early days and this is very much the first step along that particular road to real proper ray tracing so as things stand we now have the pieces we have ray tracing we have D LSS we have drivers and we have more drivers and right now it's not looking good having said that we've got very few games that use ray tracing to so clearly we need the software it's going to use it it could turn out the battlefield 5 is part of the problem it's perfectly possible but as things stand right now it's happening but not in a compelling way things that are gonna happen until ninth gen CPUs for notebooks so CS we had our TX graphics and we had 8th gen CPUs and the impression we got and I think I said this in a previous video is that the rumors at CS were that when Intel brought out the 9th gen sometime in q2 common sensors in time for Computex that core i5 core i7 CPUs would essentially be unchanged core I 9 will bring you 8 core 16 thread well it would seem this is correct up to a point not 100% correct and an techs got their hands on a table of processors so the top of the tree kora 999 ATH k-8 core 16 thread kora 798 58 8 core 8 threads so much as I've done with the desktop core i5 9400 H 4 cores 8 threads now the turbo speeds those that they varying Li 4.8 gigahertz 4.6 gigahertz 4.3 gigahertz but we're talking 45 watt parts and 45 what parts suggest the base clock will be low I have just recently on PC specialist laptop a great big beast of I think 4.3 kilos for the laptop plus one of kilos the fabric hits that is 40 mil thick it's huge and that has a desktop i 999 100k in it they limited it to 65 watts from the the desktop 95 walk part and we know desktop past will more than TDP 65 watts limited the clock speeds quite dramatically a 3.6 gigahertz from memory don't hold me to that but I think I'm right so 45 watts for eight core and eight great thread a core 16 thread parts we can expect to see all quarter burst beads being really slashed the fact they'll boost momentarily 24.6 400 short but after a short time they're gonna pull back and they'll pull back hard quite sure of that nonetheless the fact those processors are happening that's good that's interesting ask yourself however how excited are you by huge numbers of CPU cores in laptops I mean obviously it depends how thin the laptop ends up being how hot it gets how noisy it is we have to see how this works in practice but the fact is hardware's coming through after will affect until produces eight core laptop parts it doesn't remember to buy them it's just nice to have the option if it means that quad core continues to be the thing great in this instance Core i5 9400 H appears like an entirely reasonable part but once again what the all core speed is that's going to be the thing a quick boost followed by Mir that's not so exciting but it's going to be a significant range of hardware and I really hope you see that for Computex in which case you should have a whole bunch of interest in the new laptops moving over to the rumor side of things Apple apparently will produce a 16 inch MacBook Pro when they killed the 17 inch macbook pro that was just a terrible thing to do pros like big screens because you're working with photos and our videos of course you want to see the blessed thing working on a little screen not so good so the 15-inch MacBook Pro and then the baby 13 which isn't really a pro at all not so hot not so good rather hopping a different thing so 17-inch used to be where it's at 16 inch will be a curious form factor the thinking is that they might be producing a macbook pro that is edge to edge display so the chassis might actually have a footprint of a 15 15 point something in which case of big-ish screen on a smallish laptop well that could be a good thing how they do that's going to remain to be seen because what Apple really needs to do is to help out the innards of the laptops with some cooling they have been suffering with heat processes running too hot throttling back and all the rest of it if they make the chassis are probably more bulky with the sense of we're doing it but if they can come up as some innovative cooling system well that would also do the trick as well but I don't really see what they can do in a laptop if it's thin well you're limited by physics and when that laptop comes out whenever this maybe we have to assume that the graphics will be updated a Apple slipped out Radian pro vague of graphics relatively recently as far as my work there was no announcement it just kind of happened of course what we want to see is Navi now Navi goodness knows when that's happening in 2019 now if indeed it is happening in 2019 we have to hope it is but Navi would be the natural next progression so 16 inch MacBook Pro presumably with ninth gen CPU and the next gen AMD graphics well that sounds like a compelling package but that's you know chunks of speculation right there nonetheless as and when that happens look forward to seeing what Apple does whether they change what they've been doing in recent times and make things better because they've had some howlers actually they continue to sell ridiculous quantities of hardware but they do make some mistakes very short PC gigabytes Xeon motherboard motherboard rather for the xeon w3 on 7 5x has been named as the c6 2 1 which is the chipset Oris extreme not an imaginative name but it tells the lights who are saying I said the other week when I thought that gigabytes board just gone missing we saw the azouz rob Dominus at CES or a number of examples of it here there and everywhere including obviously with a Zeus but also the fan text booth and in win I think in win had won in their monster case but nonetheless that board was around and about with different cooling systems on it and it seems that gigabyte is still in the fight as to when these boards will be available that's the next question because at the moment they appear to be sort of showing up as it examples of the technology rather than things you can actually buy I mentioned Mobile World Congress MWC naturally it was about 5g because it's bound to be 5 G's happening this year it's going to be rolled out according to as Qualcomm and we'll talk about at CES due to be rolled out across the UK among other countries but that's the country I was paying attention to because if it sort of appears in one bit of London it's like well great but it appears to actually be hitting sort of 10 significant towns across the country if they're doing 10 in the UK you have to well I assume they're hitting many places across the rest of Europe America presumably Asia so because after we'll place that South Korea and Taiwan away ahead of the UK when it comes to mobile connections so 5g looking forward to seeing that obviously once you've got the infrastructure we learn about the hawawa aggravation with security and such like so we're not entirely sure which backbone hub was going to be used in which base stations are going to be installed but presuming it's all going to happen from one make or another and then you need the handsets and then hopefully you've got a super-fast connection but the real news from MWC was folding phones specifically the Samsung Galaxy fold which is like a paperback book we saw in the name of it we saw a folding phone at SES I mean it was over there did actually get up close to it I had a quick play with it it felt quite yeah you had to sort of bend the plastic into place but nonetheless the fact you can actually do it was good but the the the principle of the paperback book folding like that was like well now the screens didn't have to open it to look at the screen that wasn't to my mind particularly exciting innovative but not exciting the Samsung Galaxy fold 2000 US dollars so like Wow but then I suppose it is effectively two phones kind of the huawei mate X or are not sure always mate X will mate 10 that has to you fold it and you've got a screen on the outside and another screen on the outside but when you open it you got this 8-inch screen that you can then use as like a phablet that looks absent remarkable in the video I've seen I hasten to add I mean I should see one up close in person $2,300 so whether this is just purely the initial models just being talked about of these devices or whether this is actually going to be how much these things will cost in the future I mean that's a hell of a lot of money nonetheless the fact is happening that's interesting and impressive so we want more of that thank you very much and I did I see that apples done a patent application for a folding front immunised on they haven't done it already because the idea is obvious as to what you bring to the party what your new IPs will ask a different question but the idea that Apple hasn't seen that folding screens is going to be a thing that would stun me they must have done mustard on years ago just a question actually making it and then we amber the comedy news that other people are covered but I'm still equally appalled so I'm going to say my piece as well USB in its naming so we had USB 3.0 which is when the type a connect has changed to blue and they were fast and that was good and then we had the introduction a type C which is a physical form factor but it's what's going through the cave were interested in here and then USB 3.1 came along and that was obviously better and then we had this this shenanigans with naming so we had USB 3.0 was renamed as USB 3.1 gen2 bit connection USB 3.1 gen2 10 gigabit connection so they renamed that as that which made no sense it made perfect sense to have the slow one as USB 3.0 the fast one is USB 3.1 but they didn't do that USB 3.2 is due to oh it was announced back in 2017 but we've now got the naming scheme for it it's due to break cover during this year and we will have USB 3.2 in 5 10 and 20 gigabit versions but here's where it gets absolutely bonkers the what was USB 3.0 became USB 3.1 gen2 on is now going to be called USB 3.2 gen 1 that would be still five gigabit what was USB 3.1 gen2 becomes USB 3.2 gen – that'd be 10 gigabit still and then we had USB 3.0 gen 2 which is new and 20 gigabit and that is 2 10 gigabit connections shotgun together so USB 3.2 will mean absolutely nothing it seems to include type-a connections but in practice I think we're gonna see Type C across the piece so everything marked is USB 3.2 you would expect will be Type C but there's nothing whatsoever to prevent motherboard manufacturers I'm thinking PC terms here and laptop manufacturers renaming the connections they already have on their laptops which are going to be both type a and type C existing USB 3.0 and USB 3.1 as USB 3.2 because they are absolutely identical this is just stupid I mean no two ways about it this is stupid they had a scheme that made sense to an extent renaming things rebadging things is a bad idea I've said this before about one or two companies and it continues to be a stupid idea so that's USB 3.2 that will break cover during this year almost certainly when we see a mdx 570 boards at Computex in preparation for Xen to almost certainly they're going to include USB 3.2 and very likely PCI Express 4 and the irony being is the PCI Express 4 slot which should be the main graphic slot when almost certainly actually be a PCI Express 3 it's just because it's less than a certain length about 6 inches as I recall for the tracers that means it will qualify as PCI Express 4 so there's going to be some new numbers coming forward but they're gonna be the same thing this I predict and I think this would be true and then we literally the day after we heard him at USB 3.2 we were told that USB four be coming along but whereas USB 3.0 3.1 3.2 s USB gap and then the bit the numbers USB for is all closed up so it's USB for in one why goodness knows it may change that is going to be the specification will be announced in a few months time so I guess again around about Computex and then we're going to expect to see it break cover end of 2020 or maybe going sale early twin t21 these things take at least 18 months to come to market so specification followed by and that is actually interesting genuinely interesting so for one thing double the speed of the fastest USB 3.2 so 40 gigabit connection or up to which is fast you can guarantee that's going to be type C only and the thing is that USB 4 incorporates Thunderbolt 3 which again word salad an acronym city the thing is Thunderbolt 3 is an Intel technology Intel said back in 2017 that they were going to open up the Thunderbolt specification and make it available to all they did not say for free or on what terms but they use those words and it turns out they actually meant the best possible way Intel's press release came through today after the news at USP for yesterday and Intel one phrase from it is that this move it enables other chip makers to build thunderbolt compatible silicon royalty-free I don't see any way over we're wrangling that such that it's a comes out badly that sounds to me like Intel has done a good thing and the thing here is that this means that as I understand it if AMD builds connections that are USB 4 fully compliant and they therefore use Thunderbolt 3 it means you can take existing Thunderbolt 3 devices such as raid arrays your external housings for SSDs or EGP use which currently do not work when I am because the software doesn't allow it because the Intel drivers say new new new new new Intel only mate you better plug those in as a USB for devices and they'll work happily if that's not the case then I'm missing something but as things stand that sounds really good news that means that USB is going to get faster the difference between Thunderbolt and USB should evaporate everything will be type C it doesn't mean we're gonna have type C connections and not necessarily know what the heck they do whether they're you know how much power they can handle what data transfer what's compatible what isn't but it gives you hope that albeit 18 to 24 months time that things are gonna get better so USB 3.2 during this year sounds like a joke but in time here's before and Thunderball three that sounds really positive I'm happy about that if you liked this video give it a thumbs up look around there's a subscribe button hit that Bell button will tell you about new videos as they become available I'm your diffic guru this is Leo says

Leo says 38 – RTX DLSS HARDWARE UNBOXED, 16 inch Macbook Pro, USB 3.2/4 nonsense and MORE!

18 thoughts on “Leo says 38 – RTX DLSS HARDWARE UNBOXED, 16 inch Macbook Pro, USB 3.2/4 nonsense and MORE!”

  1. To add something other than Nvidia in the comments, the 8400H is 2.5GHz/4.2GHz base/boost, so like the 8600K to the 9600K we can probably expect the 9400H to have a 2.6GHz base. All-core boost clocks can usually be determined by ((base + boost) / 2) +- 1GHz, so I'd guess it'd have an all-core boost of ~3.5GHz and probably stick to the TDP whilst boosting.

    The 9850H I'm guessing will have a ~2.4GHz base, and a ~3.5GHz all-core boost, but probably won't stick to the TDP whilst boosting.

    The 9980HK with a 45W TDP would have a 2GHz base and ~3.4GHz all-core but probably won't stick to the TDP whilst boosting either. With a 65W TDP though, it'd have a ~2.7GHz base and a ~3.8GHz all-core boost, but again, no TDP sticking.

  2. We have reached that point when I am surprised that Intel did a good thing. I don't mean "good product", they almost always had that (except the times of Netburst, and specifically Press"hot"), but something genuinely good for everyone.

  3. It's reassuring to see that Kitguru now has a more realistic stance towards DLSS. Nvidia's promises have always been unrealistic, but only people with a good understanding of how neural networks operate have been able to point that out before. Now Nvidia is promising improvements in the future – but again skepticism is warranted, because the neural net for DLSS has two severe limitations: One, the "deep learning" can't actually be very deep because each additional layer introduces a performance penalty and thus reduces the intended FPS gain. Nvidia uses "deep learning" as a buzzword, because people generally understand that "it makes AI better", but it actually works against the purpose of DLSS (higher FPS).

    Second, in a neural network, the same set of nodes has to process every input (in case of DLSS the images rendered at lower resolution) and produce the desired output (a high quality higher resolution image). Every frame that a given game can possibly generate, no matter which geometry, textures, lighting, zoom level, viewing angle, etc. will be processed by the same set of nodes with the same parameters and weights. And that means: Yes, by "further training" (i.e. by further tweaking of the weights) you can optimize some things. But when you optimize the weights in these nodes for one group of frames, you'll also worsen the results for another group of frames, because those other frames will still be processed by the same nodes, though with weights that were optimized for completely different frames. This is a fundamental problem of neural nets that many people don't seem to understand yet – they can never be perfect, improvements in one area often lead to deterioration in others.

    As someone who worked a bit with neural nets in the past, it was (and still is) actually painful to see how many supposedly tech-savvy reviewers just gobbled up Nvidia's marketing spiel, which was based on buzzwords like "AI" and "deep learning", which people believe to be far, far more powerful than they can currently actually be.

  4. Everybody's stuck right now thinking of ray tracing in terms of eye-candy, but ray tracing also enables enough AI to easily program even bots to act as if they can see everything going on around them. The AI, physics, and other things the tensor cores enable are about to make them indispensable, and I would be surprised if we don't see some eye-popping WOW (gimmie, gimmie) technology being introduced along with the next consoles.

  5. Those are not early days, it's 6 months into cards life. DLSS doesn't work and will not work. RTX is killing performance with no real graphics upgrade. It is cosmetic/surface difference, not worth the price and performance gimp.
    We need lots and lots more power
    to actually render quality real time ray traced image. GN made great analysis on the topic. Ppl are happy for GTX1660ti coz it finally offered some value compared to the previous generation.

  6. i think 1660 ti have its place specially when some one come and tell you i want pc for 800€… it can easy fit 1660ti whit ryzen 2600, 16gb 3000mhz ram , 240gb ssd, 450watt seasonic focus gold and you get high refresh 1080p or 60fps 1440p machine, RTX and DLSS whit those few games can have it is still worthless

  7. DLSS is useless, you're better off lowering your resolution scale to 80% or so and you get similar image quality and similar fps boost in almost any game you want without the need for rtx trash

    also on a similar note, does anyone even know if we're getting that tomb raider rtx patch anymore? or was that also just another one of nvidia's lies to sell us their new overpriced gpus?

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